Mamamia Out Loud: The Men Trying To Ban Period Talk

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Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

It's what women are talking about on Monday, the 27th of March.

My name is Holly Wainwright and welcome to week two of the Gwyneth Paltrow trial.

In honour today we are all wearing cream cashmere on neck sweaters.

And Jeffrey Dahmer glasses. I'm Mia Friedman and I can't look away from that trial

and all the court TV coverage of it.

You were wearing goggles, a helmet.

Yes.

Okay, it kind of looked like everybody else on the slope.

That's always my intention.

Okay, probably had a better ski outfit though I bet.

I'm Claire Stevens, filling in for Jessie.

And my favourite tweet over the weekend was someone who wrote,

I feel like I've missed something but I'm fairly certain when a Paltrow is on trial for going skiing.

And I think that's exactly what's happening.

Check your privilege Gwyneth.

Yeah, 100%.

And on the show today, a very famous makeup boss says her husband has never seen her without makeup.

We have questions.

Plus, no Michelangelo, no period chat and definitely no drag queens

why the battle to control school kids information sources is getting weirder and closer.

And sorry, excuse me and please after you, but people pleasing comes in four distinct personality types.

Which one are you?

But first.

Friends, after 12 years in opposition, the people of New South Wales have voted for a fresh start.

In case you missed it, the Labour Party now holds the power in all mainland state and territory governments

for the first time since 2008.

Tasmania is now the only liberal led state or territory following Chris Minz's win in the New South Wales election over the weekend.

It's the first time Labour has held power in New South Wales in 12 years.

What do we think this says about where we're at?

Well, what I think it says about where we're at is that all I've heard people say about the New South Wales election

and the result of it is that Chris Minz is hot.

And I don't know whether.

Vote for daddy.

Exactly.

I don't know whether this objectification of our new Premier is a positive thing.

I don't know.

Carl Stephanovic telling Chris Minz he was hot and then Chris Minz having to react was the weirdest bit of political coverage I have ever seen.

My wife said to me the other day that it feels like it's a competition between beauty and the geek.

Am I the geek?

No.

You're not the geek.

Well, if I've got to have a problem.

It's got to be that one.

We'll see how it goes, mate.

That's the toughest question.

You're about to say that's the toughest question you've faced on the camera.

Yeah, it's a tough question.

I appreciate it.

I'm here for you.

I appreciate it.

Thanks very much.

I think that's where we are.

I think everyone's just tired.

I have feelings, but I'm going to pretend I don't because what I really want to talk about is something else.

In case you missed it, Harry Styles is dating, well, dating might not be the right word.

Harry Styles is definitely kissing up with a lot.

Our friend, Emrada.

Kissing a lot.

Kissing her a lot.

Oh, so he patted her bottom.

So as every out loud knows, this is a paparazzi-free zone.

Mama Mia.

It isn't.

We do not partake in the paparazzi economy except this is what paparazzi is good for.

We're allowed to look.

We don't, I'm published, but we do look sometimes.

I'd like to say I didn't look.

I just read the headline.

Oh, you are better than us.

But a cheeky paparazzi was lurking behind a van outside a club in Tokyo in Japan.

It was raining.

And what they got was Harry Styles and Emrada hooking up behind a van like really enthusiastically.

And I have to say, I'm a little bit sad about it.

I'm sad about it.

Are you sad about it?

Classy?

I feel weird about it.

I hate it for reasons.

I can't articulate and I think it might be because Harry's my boyfriend.

Yeah.

And my boyfriend and everybody's boyfriend.

Yeah.

And so I think it's rude.

Even hotter than Christmas.

Yeah.

Just a little bit.

Just a little bit.

But I thought just the fact that they were papped and filmed in Tokyo.

I'm thinking this has got to be set up.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but Emrada is quite well known for pap walks

and using romantic entanglements to further her career and get more attention.

And now I sound like Mark Latham.

I'm just going to shut up.

It's funny because at first I was like, oh, as we've talked about this show, Emrada is

one of those women that people love to hate.

So at first I was like, oh, and then I realized if I was young and beautiful and famous and

had access to either of those two people, of course I would pass them behind a van in

Tokyo.

Like who wouldn't?

I just think celebrities need a bit of a PSA.

You can actually kiss indoors in private.

You don't have to kiss on the street.

Sometimes the moment overtakes you.

And you just have to.

I guess actually if you were looking at either of them, yeah, you wouldn't have the self

control to say, let's hold on.

Let's go somewhere private, maybe to a hotel room where we can't be papped.

Let's go to the van.

I thought if there's one thing we've seen the back of in the age of self acceptance

and self love and here look at my stubbly bikini line.

It was the notion that a woman might get out of bed early to make sure she looked pretty

when her partner woke up beside her.

But no, Charlotte Tilbury, you might have some of her products in your makeup bag.

No, I do.

I have one of her foundations, a good eye crayon.

Apparently she sells some kind of fancy face cream every two seconds.

I have the flawless filter.

She is a British beauty guru.

She is 48 years old.

She says that her husband of seven years has never seen her without makeup and her husband

before him never saw her without makeup either.

So the journalist from the Daily Mail who is interviewing her, she said, is it true that

neither husband number one or two have ever seen you without makeup and you even wear it

to bed?

And she said, yes, I do darling.

She does speak like a character in Amphab.

It's really quite special.

And she wears a lot of makeup.

She's quite OGT.

She does.

And she's very like put together.

She says, yes, I do darling.

I have my bedroom eye.

I take off my makeup, do my skincare and then I put on my, and of course she name checks

it, colour theory eyeliner, the last 16 hours and my mascara.

George, that's her husband, has never seen me without a bedroom eye.

Never, I tell you, keep the magic alive.

Never, ever says the journalist.

Never, ever, ever says Charlotte just to make sure you know.

Now this sounds to me profoundly old fashioned and inauthentic, but Mia, you read an essay

by the writer Linda Wells about privacy this week that makes you think maybe there's something

to this.

Linda Wells is a former editor of a very well known beauty magazine called Allure in America.

And she wrote about how while her husband has indeed seen her without makeup and what

Charlotte Tilbury was saying that she did was quite extreme.

She was advocating for a return to privacy within relationships that this idea that just

because you were in a romantic relationship with someone or just in general that there

are some things that don't need to be done in front of a partner, some things that don't

need to be put on the internet, she named checked a whole bunch of treatments that people

are doing at the moment that are particularly disgusting, a couple of which I bought immediately.

One is some mask that looks like diarrhea, baby diarrhea when you put it on your face.

Another one is this thing called baby foot that you put it on your feet and then just

your feet skin peels off basically like tweezing, squeezing pimples.

Now a lot of these beauty treatments are not very attractive and perhaps it's not a bad

thing to have a little bit of mystery.

I think if you truly love someone, you're not disgusted by any of that stuff.

But I would say that the thing about this Charlotte Tilbury interview, can we all just

acknowledge that this was an ad?

Definitely.

It was an ad.

It was a product placement.

Yeah, but do you remember Alana, the fashion designer?

I don't know if her brand is still around.

I know that she sold it.

She said the same thing.

She didn't have any makeup to sell, but she also looked actually very similar to Charlotte

Tilbury.

It's a bit of a, an oldie, worldy Hollywood glamour look of like lots of eyelashes and

artfully outlined lips and everything.

And she used to do the same thing.

Her husband never saw her without makeup.

But I think for both of those women, it's part of their brand and they both have brands

that have built on having a certain look.

And Alana...

Do you have to be on brand at home?

Well, I think that it's all just an extension of that.

So Charlotte Tilbury saying that she wears this colour theory eyeliner the last 16 hours.

One, I'm buying that eyeliner.

What kind of eyeliner the last 16 hours?

So it works.

But I...

The product placement has worked.

Yes.

And the people were so upset about this and saying, it's so superficial, it's so vain.

One, I don't actually think it's true.

And two...

What you don't think it's vain.

I think it's insecure.

No, no, no.

Sorry.

I do think it's vain.

But I think that what she said probably isn't true.

I don't believe her.

Oh, I do.

That she always wears eye makeup in front of her husband.

I think that she has to say that in order to convince like, like, where's our surprise

that a woman who has made her money selling makeup is telling women, hey, you know how

you wear makeup all day, why don't you also wear it while you sleep?

I think that's very true is like buy more makeup.

Yeah.

Because your eyeliner is going to run out faster if you're putting it on twice a day.

And yeah, wash it all off, all of it, then put it on again.

But I believe it, I believe it wholeheartedly because I think there's a very specific type

of femininity which does believe that anything that is authentic, is gritty, is pussy, is

squeezy, is gross and should be hidden from men at all times.

I would find it very exhausting and inauthentic and for me, true intimacy is about not having

to be on brand at home.

Like when I'm at home and I close the door, I can be a different kind of Holly than I

am out in the world.

I don't have to have my lipstick on, I don't have to perform a certain way.

But the thing is, and this is the thing about a little bit of mystery or a little bit of

magic is that's all well and good for me that I get to be my true authentic gross self at

home.

I don't really believe I am intrinsically gross.

But the problem with that, if there's a problem with that, is that you save all your sparkle

for everybody else and at home, I'm just like a wordless, colourless pile of pyjamas.

Yeah, exactly.

You become aware that your partner has not seen you out of pyjamas for days and sometimes

weeks.

But I want to ask a question about the idea of Botox because I know that that's something

that a lot of women don't share with their partners, the fact that they've had Botox.

Pretty much all my friends who get Botox don't tell their partners.

Same.

They either genuinely don't think their partner will be interested, or they do...

So what's that about?

I think it is, though, that they know or sense that their partner will judge them.

Oh, Brent would massively judge me.

And it doesn't play into my decision because I don't really care that much.

I could easily fight that fight if I wanted.

There would be a disappointment in his eyes.

But it's none of their business.

Bori would be very disappointed.

But it's none of their business, surely.

No, it's absolutely none of their business.

And it's not like they would try and stop me or anything like that.

But I think that there would be a judgement there about how superficial it would be of

me to do that.

Oh, see, I'm going to push back on that so well.

No, no, I don't think so.

But that's what he would think.

No, no, no, I know.

I'm going to push back on the men, not on you, because it's so easy.

I mean, in some ways it's lovely what they're saying, right?

Because if it was a reverse and they were saying, hey, Claire, do you think maybe you

should get a bit of a jab jab?

That would be terrible.

So what they're saying is, I love you just the way you are, which is actually very beautiful

and romantic.

However, they don't live in the same world as we do in terms of the beauty standards

that we're expected to conform to.

And so for them to then guilt us for doing what we have to do to live in this world that

is so much tougher on women than men, I just don't think that's fair.

It's kind of like a man making a decision about whether you have pain relief during

childbirth or not.

I agree with you.

I don't think it's got anything to do with anyone other than you, what you do with your

face and yourself.

But I also don't think you do have to tell everyone everything.

Like I know that you're, you know, Mia, you're very comfortable with being warts and all,

not literally in front of the camera, but a lot of us are a bit more insecure than that.

And I don't think you necessarily have to tell everybody everything, you know, I was

having one of my, a few years ago when I was asking every woman, I was having one of my

moments of existential angst about Botox and I was like, but Eita, what about your daughter

and what does it mean and your granddaughters and you've, you've had both what you've had

work and she's like, why would you tell anyone it's not anyone's business, what you do with

your face?

You just stop talking.

And I was like, oh, absolutely, which is a revolutionary idea, but this is the opposite.

So the idea that you can't present a makeup free face to the person who's supposed to

love you most in the world is the opposite.

This is about their pressure or a perceived pressure on how you're supposed to look to

them at home all the time.

Because I actually think it would be different.

For example, when I was a lot younger and you did sleep at a boy's house or whatever,

I did keep my makeup on because I was early in the morning, I did a bridesmaids where

she gets up next to John Hamm and fixes her makeup.

So I think a lot of girls are familiar with that.

So if Charlotte Tilbury was saying it in the sense of being vulnerable that like this is

actually about me, that I don't feel comfortable, I feel like I'm only me with this makeup on,

that would be one thing.

But the way she's framed it about keeping the magic alive is that she's essentially

saying that A, keeping the magic alive is a woman's job.

There's no talk about what a man does to keep the magic alive.

Do they need to do any beauty things?

I don't think so.

Yes, they do.

Because I know many women who are like the tracksuit pants he wears around the house

and how he just scratches his bum in front of like blah blah blah.

I know lots of women who would really like it if the men did a little more magic to the

house being cut.

I feel like with men, it's more of an interpersonal thing that you feel like you can actually

say that to them in the relationship, but it's not as much of a cultural conversation

around what men need to be doing to keep the magic alive.

But the second thing is the idea that keeping the magic alive is dependent on a woman's

physical appearance.

I would say that how I look.

But that's what society tells us.

Is not.

But actually in an intimate partner relationship, I don't think that's the reality.

I don't think it's a reality either, but it's very hard to unlearn something that you've

been taught from the minute that you can consume a marketing message.

Because we are taught that everything our body does naturally, the way it smells, the

way it looks, the hair it grows, the shape of our eyebrows, our pubic hair, all of it

is disgusting.

And we have to tame it.

We have to trim it.

We have to wax it.

We have to pluck it.

We have to use fake tan.

We have to do all of these different things to make our body in its natural state more

acceptable.

Less repulsive.

Yeah.

I think the moral of the story is we all need a 16-hour eye line.

Get up early.

Yeah.

Put some mascara on.

What a product.

What a product.

It's the...

Surely you're going to get eye infect.

Anyway.

Good morning.

You look beautiful.

Oh, no.

I'm sorry.

I look terrible.

I just woke up.

Are you kidding?

Mama Mia, out loud!

Does this bill prohibit conversations about menstrual cycles?

Because we know that typically the ages is between 10 and 15.

So if little girls experience their menstrual cycle in 5th grade or 4th grade, will that

prohibit conversations from them since they are in the grade lower than 6th grade?

It would.

We're in a really interesting moment in time.

And by interesting, I mean bizarre.

I want to take you to Florida for a minute, which is a strange place to go.

But it is the home of the man who is likely to be Donald Trump's biggest challenger for

the Republican nomination for president in the elections, the next elections, whenever

they are.

I'm putting them out of my mind.

He is very hardcore in a different way to Donald Trump because Donald Trump really didn't

believe in anything other than his own power.

But Ron DeSantis has very strong ideas.

He's very, very conservative.

And there's this big movement in Florida around schools and around controlling the information

that comes to children.

I'll give you three examples.

There's a bill currently in local parliament about banning books.

And there's a lot of book bans happening in libraries all over Florida and in different

conservative states across America.

The idea that parents need to be aware of every book and approve every book that's in

a school library in case their children have access to them.

There's another example of a Florida principal who resigned last week after students were

shown an image of the statue of David by Michelangelo.

You may be familiar with that.

It's a statue of a nude man.

You can see his penis.

It's got his willy out.

Parents at that school complained that their children were exposed to pornography, which

led to the principal having to step down.

Florida Republicans also want schools to not ever talk to girls about periods or menstruation

when they are younger than 12, so in sixth grade.

Even though many girls menstruate many years before that, because they say that's part

of talking to kids about sexually transmitted diseases and human sexuality, including menstrual

health and it shouldn't start before 12 years old.

There's also the don't say gay bill, which is all about not teaching children about different

forms of sexuality.

My question is this.

The number one cause of death of children in the US is gun violence, but they don't want

to talk about that.

In fact, the people who are most in favor of banning all these things in schools are the

most excited about guns and the most against banning guns in any way.

So why do you think there's this new obsession?

And we know that there's this thing called the internet and most children aren't actually

very interested in what books are in the school library.

What's going on?

Holly, do you think that there is this obsession suddenly with controlling the access of information

to children and what right do you think parents and politicians have to determine what information

children and young adolescents can access?

I mean, we know that book banning has been around for a very long time, but it is very

alarming to consider that in some states in America right now, some of the books that

people are being demanded are removed from libraries of things like To Kill a Mockingbird

1984, Huckleberry Finn, The Handmaid's Tale, Even Where the Wild Things Are, Captured Under

Pants, which is a kids book series that my son particularly loved.

And of course, Harry Potter.

We are talking about all levels of book banning, becoming this massive hotspot in the culture

war.

A, we throw around that term all the time, as if it's anything about arguments that about

really polarizing issues.

But what's happening in America explains why large sections of communities are terrified,

because if it starts being legislated against, it's also a lot of anti-trans health care

legislation being pushed through in American states too.

But I think that this obsession with information and education, the reinvigoration of this

is partly because of the internet, Mia, because as you rightly point out, it seems kind of

redundant to pretend that you can keep a child cloistered in the way that you once could,

really, to be honest, from everything from information about periods to sex to STIs

to sexuality, when everything is available at the touch of a button, a tap of a phone.

Of course, I'm sure that in some of these very conservative schools and very conservative

communities, there are a lot of restrictions on that too.

Kids probably not being allowed to have phones, kids probably not being allowed to have access

to the internet in various spaces.

I think what it is, is this sort of sense that I think a lot of parents have in different

degrees of there's this wave of stuff coming at my kid and I can't control it and I can't

control it and I can't control it.

So what can I control?

Maybe I can control the books in the library, maybe I can control what the teachers are

teaching them and it's just such a terrifying development, I think.

It's interesting because also it's one of those issues where you can look at the same

thing and see different things.

So here in Australia, in private schools and independent schools, they have a certain amount

of freedom about what they do and don't teach kids and there's lots of religious schools

that pick and choose which bits of biology they teach children.

My kid's public school has a massive progress pride flag on the wall and lots of like everybody

is welcome here signs that I'm sure some parents would consider agenda pushing, but then other

parents like myself would say, well, that's table stakes for a school that has to by its

nature of public school be a welcome space for everybody, right, they have to say everybody

is welcome here.

So it's very thorny, I just really hope that we're not about to head down the same route.

I think there's something different about the US in that they've got the school board,

they've got a different system to us where a parents complaint.

So for example, with the Statue of David, it was three parents that complained, three

parents complaining means that someone loses their job.

We don't have the same system in Australia.

But the thing I think parents are becoming more and more aggressive in terms of their

interference with schools and what's being taught and the way their kids are treated.

Yes.

Certainly then when we were at school.

Yes.

But the model in the US is more like schools of businesses.

And if there's pressure, they have to change the way they're running things.

Whereas in Australia, our systems a little bit more in terms of state schools and religious

schools and private schools, it's just a little bit more complicated.

But the thing I can't get over with this is the absolute hypocrisy of conservative voices

in the US who argue and argue and argue for free speech.

And then you look at this situation, you go, oh no, in this case, you are completely limiting

free speech and education to things like the renaissance.

It's so bizarre.

What I'm interested in more is in terms of the right to the access to information, at

what point do you as a parent have the right to decide?

Because this may sound like a tangent, but I was reading an interview recently with one

of the Duggar children.

I think it was Ginger with a J and she's estranged from the family.

They had a reality show called 19 and counting about the 19 children that they had and she

was trying to have more and they were very, very religious.

So they were almost like armies that women or war and the girls or war like pinnifaws

and it was very, very strict and religious, they're upbringing.

One of Ginger's brothers was accused of sexually assaulting two of his sisters.

He's now in jail for other child pornography charges.

But in the course of this book that Ginger's written and becoming estranged from her family,

she's talked about how they were given no access to any kind of information in terms

of sex education, all of those kinds of things.

And I know this sounds like a roundabout way of saying it, but when you deprive children

of information about their bodies, about sex, about sexuality, about sexual health, about

physical things that might happen to their own body, what right do you have to do that?

I would argue that you don't.

The parents would say you do.

I'm the parent.

If I want to smack my child, if I want to tell my child that there's a particular type

of God or not a particular type of God, or if I want my child to eat certain things.

Well, you can.

You can tell them whatever you want to tell them and then they'll figure out their own

way, won't they?

Like, I think the should there is the thing that's entirely subjective.

I mean, in my world, I know that I worry about what kind of things my kids see on the internet.

Of course I do.

Like everybody does.

Every parent I know would really quite like some level of restriction on information on

the internet in some way, which is almost impossible to get.

But I think that what we know is healthy is the more they know the better.

I mean, the thing about not talking to girls about periods is ridiculous.

We've all heard stories of girls who would never given that information thinking they

were dying when they find blood in their underpants, when they have their first period thinking

they've got cancer, like thinking there's something terribly wrong with them.

And I don't understand how teaching a girl about periods could possibly lead to anything

negative.

And it's really worth noting that that particular bill, like the senator who has proposed it

has really been pushed on it.

And it literally means that say there is a nine, 10, 11 year old girl at school and

she gets her period and she wants to go to her teacher and say, I have my period.

Can I have a pad?

That's not allowed.

That's what this bill means.

It just makes absolutely no sense.

The thing with books though, I mean, call me crazy.

But if my child read a book, I'd be just so happy.

I don't care what the book's about, like these people clearly haven't met a child in

the digital age because the idea of them going to a library in the school, I didn't

even know there's still worse school libraries.

Do you think that it's just like a complete, maybe you would go hunting out in the library

if you think it even matters.

But why?

When you've got the internet, but maybe you don't, but maybe you don't.

Do you know what I mean?

In Australia, if you are religious and you want your child to have an education that

teaches certain things about abortion, about gay marriage, whatever, you can send your

kid to an ultra, ultra religious school and they will teach things in line with that.

Or you can choose to send your kid to a state school or another type of school who you know

is more progressive.

The really scary thing about the stuff going on in Florida is that this is not the Catholic

education board.

This is just schools.

This is all schools in Florida.

The irony is that it's all in response to the woke agenda.

I can't see anything that's more blatantly pushing an agenda than what they're proposing.

And also, I think back to the idea that I think it's a reaction to being afraid of what

kids will find on the internet.

We all know that kids, adolescents and upwards are very influenced by YouTube, by TikTok.

We know they are, right?

And that's where they'll go to find anything out.

And that is a very scary thought for parents who don't understand that world.

So if they think they can control or that they'll combat what's out there with their

set of beliefs over here.

But it's a hiding to them.

Before we completely castigate this as being a right-wing issue, the left is asking for

changes to be made to a lot of books as well.

Certain words and certain phrases being taken out of Roald Dahl and now Enid Blyton.

So it seems like both the left and the right are each trying to exert control.

That's talking about some language being changed to be more inclusive in particular editions

of particular books.

This is talking about banning books, banning what people can be taught.

I think that this is why, and I mean, this obviously betrays my prejudices on this issue,

but everybody gets their knickers in and out about the woke agenda, but it's actually the

law reforms in America that are coming from the religious right that are really taking

people's rights away.

And that is what we should really be looking at in my opinion.

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We know what the classic typical people pleaser is like.

Maybe you recognise yourself as one of those.

That's the bit where someone wants everything to be okay for everybody else.

They want to plan the perfect party or come up with the most thoughtful birthday present.

Recently I was listening to an episode of a podcast called Best Friend Therapy and it's

hosted by Elizabeth Day and psychotherapist Emma Reed-Torell.

And Reed-Torell identified four types of people pleases.

She's written a book called Please Yourself and this is what she says about the different

types.

By the way, before I get onto these, each time she said one, I decided it was me because

I think I wanted people please.

You identify as a people pleaser.

Yes.

I was like, I have to people please by being in each category.

So first up, the classic people pleaser.

They will go above and beyond helping people out, doing favours, granting wishes.

Their raison d'etre is to make other people happy and I call those the classics.

Nothing is too much trouble and they thrive on the appreciation and the positive reinforcement

they get when they've done more than their fair share.

When you ask them what they want or what they like, they actually find it hard to answer

because they don't know anymore.

Because they're so defined by pleasing everybody else that they've got no sense of what they

actually want.

Then the second type is the shadow people pleaser.

And the shadow is actually the person who grew up around somebody who already occupied

the limelight.

So maybe they had narcissistic behaviours in the family of origin and they learned how

to adapt to those because the shadow is someone who gets their sense of validation from helping

someone else realise their goals.

So they're everyone's favourite deputy and they don't put their needs first at all.

Then there's the pacifier people pleaser.

This is different because they're not trying to please, they're trying not to displease.

They want things to feel calm and safe and peaceful and they will go to great lengths

to make sure that happens.

They might try to find a compromise in every situation or to use humour to lighten a mood.

Then there's the resistor.

These people don't call themselves people pleasers.

They say they don't care what people think.

They avoid, reject, resist and their philosophy is if they don't play, they can't lose.

They still had a relativity to the pressure to please, the idea that we should be complying

with something.

So they've artificially thickened their skin because the fact is we all care what people

think and it's actually natural and normal to care.

So these people have built up a bit of an armour but ironically it's because they have such

a desire to please that they actually can't let it get to them.

Mia, you're not a people pleaser.

Do you agree with that statement that you're not a people pleaser?

I don't know.

I've been thinking about it.

No, I don't.

One of my favourite things about you is that if I said, hey, Mia, do you want to go get

a coffee?

You would have absolutely no problem saying, um, no.

And I love that about you but I can't do that and I'm jealous of that skill.

Right.

That's quite healthy.

I have always kind of, I've been very independent since I was a kid and I've always sort of

had to look after myself and put my own needs first so I'm very good at putting on my oxygen

mask on.

Yes, first.

That's important.

So I know what I need to survive and that has not necessarily been a good thing in all

my relationships and it's very challenging when you're a mother because you are meant

to always put your children first and sometimes I haven't.

In terms of people pleasing though, I've had to grow a thick skin because you have to

accept at a certain point when you work on the internet that there are people out there

who hate you and people out there who are invested in hating you and who want to believe

lies about you.

And nothing you say.

I used to think, if I could just explain to each of them individually, I will get them

to come around.

I don't think that anymore.

That way madness lies.

Are you comfortable with the fact that there are some people who you have not pleased?

I don't like to be misunderstood or misjudged.

I don't think that you're... I don't like people to be mad at me.

I don't like people to be mad at me.

Yes, but I don't think Mia sits around going like, oh, I'm glad that so-and-so is upset

about that.

Oh, no, the opposite.

I don't like knowing that anyone out there is upset with me or mad with me.

I mean, people that I know, if it's someone that I don't know, I realized I can't change

that.

What about you?

Are you a shadow?

Are you a shadow?

All of the above.

I think I'm a little bit of a shadow.

You talk about being a people-pleaser heaps, right?

Yes.

And so, it's obviously a big part of your personality and something I know you're trying

to work on.

Yes.

So, my theory is... Because lots of women will be listening to this and nodding because

women over-index in the people-pleasing for various reasons.

I think this is really interesting because it draws some lines that I'd always wondered

because I'm definitely a people-pleaser, but I'm not a classic.

No.

There are lots of things I don't do and I certainly don't obsess about hosting perfect

parties and volunteering at school.

You also don't... That's not me at all.

And you don't organize the office cake or anything like that.

I know some of those people and I'm not that at all, much to some people's irritation,

but I'm definitely a pacifier.

That's what I am.

I get very sensitive to how other people are feeling about things.

I want everybody to be comfortable or that shit.

That's definitely me.

There are some situations, people I really know and trust and love, like I'm very comfortable

having Archie Bargey with them, but I hate to think that people are uncomfortable.

I want to know what you do to try and unpick people-pleasing because you are, as I say,

you've been talking about this a lot, so what are you doing to try and combat your people-pleasing

tendencies?

Well, in this podcast, they talk about the fact that it's actually a fast track to intimacy

when you state your boundaries.

So if my friend says, do you want to go out for dinner?

And I say, hmm, you know what, like I don't.

I don't.

I'm kind of tired or I'm trying to save money, whatever.

That actually is better for your relationship than me saying, yes, I'd love to go to dinner

and then being like, sorry, I don't want to go or canceling last minute or whatever.

And I noticed that I recently had a friend.

We were planning something ahead of Jesse's wedding with a friend and I was booking massages

and my friend said, you know what, I actually don't love massages.

And I was like, what a fun fact to know about you.

I'm not offended that does not change my plan that me and Jesse will get massages, whatever.

But it actually brings you closer to somebody and asserting your boundaries is not something

that makes people dislike you.

It makes people trust you more and trust that when you say you want to do something, you're

telling the truth.

Because I, one of my toxic traits is that to avoid upsetting people, I'll skirt an issue.

So it's like, I'd love to go out for dinner, Claire, and then we'll just never-

I'll never like initiate planning it.

And like maybe you'll ask me and I might not reply because in my mind, I'm like, I don't

want to say no.

And so I'll kind of think, oh, well, that'll sort itself out like an it never will.

Me too.

I have this magical thinking that, or maybe I will feel like doing it.

I've learned the hard way because I've spent too many times saying yes to things.

One of the big things we talk about the no rule and about when you're asked to do something

and often I'll be asked to do something where you come and speak at this event, where you

come and host this blah, where you do this.

And I used to say yes in the moment because I wanted that person to like me and be happy

with me in that moment.

And I learned through experience, there's that one second that you get of the person

being really happy that you've said yes.

And then the impact that that has on future you that has to actually travel to the event

that has to make time and disrupt other people's lives to get there and let other people down

and on a night that you just want to be doing something else.

It's not worth it.

So it's only after I've done that time and time and time and time again.

And I find that people like it much more when you're more direct.

It's back to what you say.

When you're a parent, because I've been a parent since I was 25, that is all about

people pleasing.

You know, it's not just about people pleasing people you don't know very well.

It's also about always putting your needs second.

I was going to ask, do you think when your toddler wants you to read that book again

or do a puzzle and you'd rather stick a chopstick in your eye?

Do you think women become less people pleasing the older they get, hence the Karen stereotype?

I think in theory they do.

I think there's a flip side to that.

My theory hole, it's the estrogen.

No, no, I know it's about the estrogen, the people pleasing hormones and your testosterone

and I've heard all that stuff, right, and I've heard lots of women talk about it.

But there's a flip side to it.

If you're panicking that you're becoming invisible, irrelevant, you know, that your

position in the world is fragile because you're an aging woman and we don't like aging women,

then being crotchety on top of all that is not great for brand.

That can be true that women are less people pleasing as they get older.

When I say brand, I don't mean like literally, I mean in the world.

So I think that if you're feeling very confident in your position in the world, then that can

be true.

But if you're still trying to get things, then you still have to be people pleasing

and in some ways even more so.

Do men have to be people pleasing?

I think that there are men who are people pleasers, but I think it's more a female problem because

of how we're socialized, that you just grow up being told that it's your job to make other

people feel good.

I don't think all of that is negative.

We could argue about this for a year probably Mia, but I find myself doing it to my daughter.

What was the situation the other day?

But I do it to them both.

Matilda was buying a new pair of footy trainers and the guy was coming over and fitting her

with them.

And I'm like, every time he comes, I'm like, say thank you, say please, say this, say

that.

And sometimes I'll be like, your face is a bit rude, like I totally over correct because

I don't think there's anything wrong with considering other people's feelings and making

sure that other people's days are going well.

No, but when you take that to the extreme, when the Me Too movement happened and so many

women talked about instances of sexual harassment and how a woman's instinct, you know, they're

the fight, flight, freeze or fawn.

And the fawn response is when we try to make someone feel okay about a situation because

you know, there's that thing that a man's biggest fear is being embarrassed and a woman's

biggest fear is being killed.

And so we learned that for our survival, it's important to seek the approval of people who

are in positions of power over us, whether it's physical power or, you know, structural

power.

I have a recommendation before we go, which is a recipe.

It says here in our script, Holly Egg Cup.

Well, they're not called egg cups, they're actually called egg things, which is even

better.

Seems it less specific.

It's a breakfast that I eat whenever I'm home.

So I'm not home every morning because I gotta purely get the train here, whatever.

But when I'm home, I always make this breakfast.

And the other week, I posted about it from a smug perspective because I've been growing

vegetables as I've already bored you all with, and I was using my grown, anyway.

Tell us more about the vegetables you're growing.

Exactly.

Me is so interested.

How are they looking today?

Was the eggplant on your stories?

Was that one you grew?

Yes, but that doesn't go in this, but yes.

That was huge.

Eggplants we've grown.

We've grown.

Anyway, blah.

I posted about it.

There's a recipe for the egg things, and I can't bake, talk about people pleasing.

We had an election day thing at the weekend, and everybody was taking cakes, and all the

people I know are like, I'm taking this, I'm taking that.

And I can't bake, save myself.

But I can make egg things, and I did, I made a big tray of them, and I took them to the

bake, so they went off.

So they're basically frittatas, although I think frittatas have tough potato in them.

I don't know.

I don't know what's in a frittata.

This is what you do.

One egg per thing.

So if there's four, if you want four egg things, use four eggs.

If you want two, you use two.

Love that math.

Crack them in a bowl.

Chop up whatever vegetables you have in the bottom of the fridge.

You know the ones that go in a bit, whatever?

Like carrots.

No, not carrots.

Is this just an omelet?

It's the only thing I've got in the bottom of my fridge, I'm already out.

I need zucchini, capsicum, tomato, whatever it's like.

Tomato.

Yeah.

Okay.

Not cooked.

I love tomatoes.

Not cooked though.

Chop them up, throw them in, whisk them.

Pour them in a muffin pan.

Shove it in the oven.

Done.

Half an hour.

So they come out little muffins, egg things, little muffins like that.

So I'm sorry, it's just egg and vegetables, leftovers.

And then milk.

No cheese.

You can put a splash of milk in and you can either sprinkle a bit of feta on top if you

want or a bit of bacon on top if you're a meaty person, shove them in.

They are so fucking good.

Good for you.

Delicious.

Yummy.

I have them with hot sauce.

Half an hour.

No idea what temperature people always ask that.

I just whack it up to like middle.

The thing about cooking is that sometimes you've got to go off vibes.

It's an egg thing.

Guys, it's an egg thing cooked on middle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cooked on middle.

They are so good.

Thank you, Nigella.

I put paper in my muffin pan because my muffin pan is shit and it sticks.

So they come out in a little paper thing, you take it off, you eat it, they're great.

That's it.

Breakfast of champions.

Egg things.

Fully weighing right in trademark.

That is all we have time for on today's Mama Mia Out Loud.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for filling in for Jessie, Claire.

That's okay.

I know the Out Loud is the one to know where she is.

It's her wedding week.

She's got a lot of shit going on.

Yeah.

They're all wishing her well as we all do.

She's got to practice walking in shoes because the center of gravity is out.

She's been walking around in tracksuit pants and her heels and she looks like J-Lo.

Pregnant lady prepping for the wedding.

But thank you for listening and thank you for filling in, Claire.

This episode is produced by Emma Gillespie with Audio Production by Leah Porges and

Assistant Production from Susanna Makin and we'll see you tomorrow.

Bye.

Bye.

Shout out to any Mama Mia subscribers listening.

If you love the show and you want to support us, subscribing to Mama Mia is the very best

way to do it.

There's a link in the episode description.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.